Q. Some Congress leaders have made serious allegations against Shanti Bhushan and his sons Jayant and Prashant Bhushan
A. The Bhushans are not the only ones on the joint committee to draft the Lokpal Bill who are being tarnished. Allegations are also being made against Anna Hazare as regards the trust he has founded. Besides, Congress secretary Digvijay Singh has targeted Justice Santosh Hedge. Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari has said that civil society representatives on the committee should be measured by the same yardstick as politicians.
I find this a little strange, especially when Congress president Sonia Gandhi has written a letter of support to Anna Hazare, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has issued a strong statement on the need to fight corruption. With Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi giving more support than we had expected, we would also expect the Congress president to take strong action against her party general secretary and spokesperson. A relentless propaganda war is going on.
Q. But you cannot deny there is strong evidence against Shanti Bhushan in terms of a conflict of interest, and also on the issue of the CD being doctored.
A. There is no conflict of interest in Shanti Bhushan acquiring the land at Noida. He did not receive it from any discretionary quota, and for the next 20 years he will have to pay an annual rent of Rs 20 lakh for it.
It is also rather strange that a 1960 land purchase issue in Allahabad is being raised today. About the CD also, I must stress that it has no author. There are all kinds of conflicting reports on whether it has been doctored. No one knows just how many copies of this CD are floating around. What is the credibility of Amar Singh who is supposed to be behind it? Everyone knows what he is all about.
Q. What is the point you are making?
A. I have been raising civil society issues for many years. I am not blind to what is going on at present. There is a concerted move to weaken the civil society movement.
All kinds of forces are trying to weaken the co-ordination committee even before it can start negotiations with the government.
We are also not going to sit idle. We will continue to put pressure on the government. We are going to start an all-India yatra from Varanasi on April 29. From there, we plan to go to Sultanpur, and on May 1 Anne Hazare and other members will address meetings in Lucknow.
On May 2, the members will be in Delhi to take part in the Joint Drafting Committee meeting. Following that we will go to Guwahati, and then on May 4 we will be in Bhubaneshwar. We plan to criss-cross the country, raising the issue of corruption and the Lokpal Bill before the people.
Q. There have also been allegations about the funding of this movement. Apart from other groups, you are all known to have received a large grant from the Jindals.
A. The Jindals are reported to have made this payment almost five years ago. Most of the money has been received by two NGOs, including Parivartan. The total donations received, as far as I understand, have been to the tune of `82 lakhs.
A list of all the expenses incurred have been shown on the website of these NGOs. There was an expense of `32 lakhs incurred for the meeting held at Ram Lila ground some time ago. There is transparency about all the expenses incurred. Let me turn to the allegation being made against the co-ordination committee members around and state: Suppose we kept insisting that all the five Cabinet ministers, who are on the drafting panel, be investigated. Maybe, there should be a thorough enquiry into all the financial dealings of the Union home minister, P. Chidambaram. What are his assets? What have his dealings been in the past? Is such an attitude going to help?
The crux of the matter is that we need a strong anti-corruption law. This is something the nation has been demanding for 42 years. The bill should have enough teeth to prosecute those guilty of corruption. What the government is presently bringing to the table is a completely toothless law that will convict no one.
Q. Many members of the civil society are also critical about the way a few members seem to have hijacked the movement. There are also allegations that the bill is being rushed through without wider confabulations.
A. There have been extensive consultations, so much so that the draft of the Lokpal Bill has already changed its shape and form twelve times. The process of wider consultation has not stopped.
Q. RTI activists like Aruna Roy and Nikhil Dey have pointed out that consultation is a long- drawn process which cannot be hurried through. It took many years for the RTI law to be passed in its present form. Another allegation is that if laws start getting drafted by non- elected representatives, this will undermine the very process of democracy.
A. On a sensitive subject like corruption, it seems difficult to trust politicians entirely.
Why will they agree to voluntarily put a noose around their own necks. Also, if we look at the genesis of many of our laws, they have often been based on issues raised by intellectuals, scientists and so on.
Q. But why the insistence on the Bhushans and nobody else?
A. We need people who are tough negotiators. These two have been associated with the Bill from the start. They helped originally draft this law, and have played a key role in the anti-corruption movement.